This afternoon, heading out on a ride, I stopped to take a photo of the infamous stop sign at Canada Road & Jefferson that so many people fly through. As seen in the photo, the limit line extends not just across the roadway, but the bike lane as well. It would not be a good idea to try and make a case that the stop sign in question doesn't apply to cyclists. It seems to me that both this and the stop sign about a mile further south could have a fly-out bike lane that goes around the far side (away from the road) of the stop sign and wouldn't require cyclists to stop, for either legal or safety reasons. Photo available here- www.ChainReaction.com/test.htm Please note this photo will only be up for a couple weeks, so if you're googling this message five years from now, you won't find it. Thanks- --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

> You'll be extremely hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that stopping > here is > a necessary condition for either courtesy or safety. Occasionally, it > is, but certainly not always, or even usually. Nor is this minority of > cases difficult to determine -- you slow, look left, and if nobody's > waiting, you keep rolling... > > The problem isn't with these riders, but with folks who brazenly and > arrogantly assert a right-of-way which doesn't exist, who blow through the > sign, perhaps thinking that left-turning traffic can turn anyway, even if > it's obvious most drivers are justifiably reluctant to turn when there's > cyclists passing through, and therefore will end up waiting, when the law > said they had the right to their turn to the intersection themselves. Perhaps I should invite you to that intersection on a Sunday afternoon around 1pm. You would find, as I did last Sunday, that the great majority of cyclists heading south through that intersection are of the "brazen" variety, blowing through at high (greater than 20mph) speed. Notable were the five I spotted who did bother to slow down. I will disagree strongly with anyone who says it's OK to blow through that intersection at speed. These people aren't even bothering to look, or if they are, they're not bothering to slow down when there's a car there. The law says that a car making a left turn from Jefferson onto Canada has to stop and wait for traffic that hits the intersection before them. Are you suggesting that a car not do so? My guess is that riders would not feel very comfortable with cars making that left turn (from Jefferson onto Canada) right next to them and they come flying through. And yet, as I observed yesterday, the bikes do in fact come flying through, car or not. > Throughout history to at least the Boston Tea Party, there's a general > feeling that if laws fail to meet certain criteria of sensibility, for > example in the case of traffic law, courtesy and safety, they are bad laws > and don't deserve to be respected. I'm not convinced it's a bad law that doesn't allow cyclists to blow through that intersection. It's a poor execution of traffic flow for cyclists, yes. But the laws as they're presently on the books aren't at fault here. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message news:l_6Jh.3734$tv6.880@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net... > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >> It would not be a good idea to try and make a case that the stop sign in >> question doesn't apply to cyclists. > > Throughout history to at least the Boston Tea Party, there's a general > feeling that if laws fail to meet certain criteria of sensibility, for > example in the case of traffic law, courtesy and safety, they are bad laws > and don't deserve to be respected. > > You'll be extremely hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that stopping > here is a necessary condition for either courtesy or safety. > Occasionally, it is, but certainly not always, or even usually. Nor is > this minority of cases difficult to determine -- you slow, look left, and > if nobody's waiting, you keep rolling... > > The problem isn't with these riders, but with folks who brazenly and > arrogantly assert a right-of-way which doesn't exist, who blow through the > sign, perhaps thinking that left-turning traffic can turn anyway, even if > it's obvious most drivers are justifiably reluctant to turn when there's > cyclists passing through, and therefore will end up waiting, when the law > said they had the right to their turn to the intersection themselves. > > The problem is that when the law is enforced, it's enforced without > discretion, without context, and that only decreases respect people have > for the law, as the enforcement only reinforces the apparent lack of basis > in either safety or courtesy. > > Dan

> The law says that a car making a left turn from Jefferson onto Canada has > to stop and wait for traffic that hits the intersection before them. Are > you suggesting that a car not do so? My apologies; you specifically pointed out that problem. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA