ba.bicycles

>> On the other hand, lack of adequate hydration can get people into very >> serious trouble, often without them realizing it. Reading stories about >> people who can go 170 miles without food or water, without mentioning the >> potential dangers in doing so, might cause less-experienced riders to not >> only attempt things they shouldn't (by not carrying enough food & water) >> but >> also cause them to mistake the warning signs of dehydration for something >> else, possibly leading to heat stroke etc. > > Why stop there? For that matter, children who see cyclists cycling > might start riding themselves, and get hit by a car before they have > every safety rule memorized. Should Dan wear a disclaimer when he > rides? Why stop there? Because it's relevant to stop there. I'm bringing something from an extreme (riding 170 miles without food or water) to a sensible middle ground. I didn't give any lectures about making sure you drink 16.325 ounces of fluid every 53 minutes. Context is relevant. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA <doug.landau@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1167865924.988417.156610@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >> > Danny Chew once rode 170 miles w/o food or water. What was the point >> > of >> > that? Probably the reason we do all sorts of challenging things. To >> > see >> > if he could. >> > >> > Obviously, the more we ride, the better we become at utilizing fat as >> > an >> > energy source, sparing the need for limited glycogen stores. >> > Similarly, >> > ability to thermoregulate differs from person to person, and changes >> > with >> > training, resulting in a large variation in hydration requirements. >> > >> > Dan >> >> On the other hand, lack of adequate hydration can get people into very >> serious trouble, often without them realizing it. Reading stories about >> people who can go 170 miles without food or water, without mentioning the >> potential dangers in doing so, might cause less-experienced riders to not >> only attempt things they shouldn't (by not carrying enough food & water) >> but >> also cause them to mistake the warning signs of dehydration for something >> else, possibly leading to heat stroke etc. > > Why stop there? For that matter, children who see cyclists cycling > might start riding themselves, and get hit by a car before they have > every safety rule memorized. Should Dan wear a disclaimer when he > rides? > > Doug >

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote: > I'm bringing something from an extreme (riding 170 miles without food > or water) to a sensible middle ground. Let's hear it for the middle ground. I suspect that most avid cyclists who have been riding for several years have had their experiences with dehydration, hyponatremia (low sodium), and low glycogen. I know I have occasionally, and I would rather avoid those unpleasant moments in the future. Getting sensible amounts of fuel and hydration is the best course of action. Even if one person rode 170 miles on one day without food or water, trying that again under different weather conditions might land that person in the emergency room. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again. -- terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/

Hey, guys, Danny Chew takes things to the extreme. If you follow his posts on RAAM and other ultra events, the guy likes to push the limits. The one thing I can say is that he doesn't encourage others to do it. The guy has won RAAM twice. He wants to ride a million miles on the bike. Is a regular in several 24 hour races on the road bike. Bottom line, the guy likes to push it but isn't saying follow my lead. I understand why his name was brought up but not the person I would have picked as my example.

"Terry Morse" <tmorse@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:tmorse-A2D0CD.23205103012007@news.covad.net... > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote: > >> I'm bringing something from an extreme (riding 170 miles without food >> or water) to a sensible middle ground. > > Let's hear it for the middle ground. > > I suspect that most avid cyclists who have been riding for several > years have had their experiences with dehydration, hyponatremia (low > sodium), and low glycogen. I know I have occasionally, and I would > rather avoid those unpleasant moments in the future. > I started to write, but Terry already mentioned it. Cyclist get to know their needs through years of riding. I have found myself drinking less and using less nutrients on longer rides, and also learning how to conserve my energy. I've first read Jobst Brandt article years ago when he rode over 100 miles up Mt. Hamilton to Livermore and back without food and water. At first I was astound that he could do that at his age, and even questioned him about it. I was able to understand after he explained how he conserved his energy and rode in a moderate cooler temperature. I then evaluated my own riding style and learned how to ride longer and conserve. I recently did a 70+ mile Hamilton ride on 3/4 of a small water bottle and no nutrients and actually felt pretty good after the ride. I'll always carry a water bottle and nutrients, and use them if I need it. I used to be a hammer, but learned to tone it down through the years. fwiw, -tom

"Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote in news:enj7bi$qo7$1@news.Stanford.EDU: > I started to write, but Terry already mentioned it. Cyclist get to > know their needs through years of riding. I have found myself drinking > less and using less nutrients on longer rides, and also learning how > to conserve my energy. > > I've first read Jobst Brandt article years ago when he rode over 100 > miles up Mt. Hamilton to Livermore and back without food and water. > At first I was astound that he could do that at his age, and even > questioned him about it. I was able to understand after he explained > how he conserved his energy and rode in a moderate cooler temperature. > I then evaluated my own riding style and learned how to ride longer > and conserve. I recently did a 70+ mile Hamilton ride on 3/4 of a > small water bottle and no nutrients and actually felt pretty good > after the ride. I'll always carry a water bottle and nutrients, and > use them if I need it. I used to be a hammer, but learned to tone it > down through the years. fwiw, > -tom Well, I think you're doing it all wrong. It's not hard to go without eating and drinking enough when you're riding. It's hard to keep putting the stuff down even though you don't feel hungry and thirsty. "Eat before you're hungry and drink before you're thirsty" is a truism. If you start feeling hungry and thirsty, you've already started down that slippery slope and it's hard to recover. There are many times I've been on a long ride and felt poorly because I didn't eat and drink enough during the ride. I still haven't mastered this. I'm convinced that learning how to eat and drink properly is the key to doing long, hard rides comfortably. I don't think there is any training benefit to denying your body food and water on a ride. -- Mike DeMicco <blaster186@comcast.net>

"Mike DeMicco" <blaster186REMOVETHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message news:Xns98AF59C834D38blaster186comcastnet@130.133.1.4... > "Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote in > news:enj7bi$qo7$1@news.Stanford.EDU: > >> I started to write, but Terry already mentioned it. Cyclist get to >> know their needs through years of riding. I have found myself drinking >> less and using less nutrients on longer rides, and also learning how >> to conserve my energy. >> >> I've first read Jobst Brandt article years ago when he rode over 100 >> miles up Mt. Hamilton to Livermore and back without food and water. >> At first I was astound that he could do that at his age, and even >> questioned him about it. I was able to understand after he explained >> how he conserved his energy and rode in a moderate cooler temperature. >> I then evaluated my own riding style and learned how to ride longer >> and conserve. I recently did a 70+ mile Hamilton ride on 3/4 of a >> small water bottle and no nutrients and actually felt pretty good >> after the ride. I'll always carry a water bottle and nutrients, and >> use them if I need it. I used to be a hammer, but learned to tone it >> down through the years. fwiw, >> -tom > Well, I think you're doing it all wrong. It's not hard to go without > eating and drinking enough when you're riding. It's hard to keep putting > the stuff down even though you don't feel hungry and thirsty. "Eat before > you're hungry and drink before you're thirsty" is a truism. If you start > feeling hungry and thirsty, you've already started down that slippery > slope and it's hard to recover. A good cyclist would know how to recover. When you start to feel hungry, simple "eat" When you start to feel thirsty, "drink". Recovery is part of riding. >There are many times I've been on a long > ride and felt poorly because I didn't eat and drink enough during the > ride. I still haven't mastered this. Many times??? You would think by now you would teach yourself how to adjust. >I'm convinced that learning how to > eat and drink properly is the key to doing long, hard rides comfortably. If you were convinced you probably wouldn't have wrote the line above. > I don't think there is any training benefit to denying your body food and > water on a ride. Not denying, just knowing your body and how to make the necessary adjustments on long rides. fwiw, -tom

Mike DeMicco writes: >> I started to write, but Terry already mentioned it. Cyclist get to >> know their needs through years of riding. I have found myself >> drinking less and using less nutrients on longer rides, and also >> learning how to conserve my energy. >> I've first read Jobst Brandt article years ago when he rode over >> 100 miles up Mt. Hamilton to Livermore and back without food and >> water. At first I was astound that he could do that at his age, >> and even questioned him about it. I was able to understand after >> he explained how he conserved his energy and rode in a moderate >> cooler temperature. I then evaluated my own riding style and >> learned how to ride longer and conserve. I recently did a 70+ mile >> Hamilton ride on 3/4 of a small water bottle and no nutrients and >> actually felt pretty good after the ride. I'll always carry a >> water bottle and nutrients, and use them if I need it. I used to >> be a hammer, but learned to tone it down through the years. > Well, I think you're doing it all wrong. It's not hard to go > without eating and drinking enough when you're riding. It's hard to > keep putting the stuff down even though you don't feel hungry and > thirsty. "Eat before you're hungry and drink before you're thirsty" > is a truism. If you start feeling hungry and thirsty, you've > already started down that slippery slope and it's hard to recover. > There are many times I've been on a long ride and felt poorly > because I didn't eat and drink enough during the ride. I still > haven't mastered this. I'm convinced that learning how to eat and > drink properly is the key to doing long, hard rides comfortably. I > don't think there is any training benefit to denying your body food > and water on a ride. The way you say that, it seems you eat and drink ritualistically when on the bicycle, for no other reason than believing it is what you should do. Bicycling is no different than life in general, whether at work or recreation. Enjoy what you are doing and respond to the demands of the body as most creatures do. I take 2000mi+ bicycle tours in the Alps and ride over the Sierra Nevada on long rides and have a great time. By your dire warnings, I should have been dead long ago. I don't have a water bottle. http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/SierraSpring.htm http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/ I can recommend it. Jobst Brandt

In article <enm3uv$da5$1@news.Stanford.EDU>, "Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > "Mike DeMicco" <blaster186REMOVETHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:Xns98AF59C834D38blaster186comcastnet@130.133.1.4... > > "Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote in > > news:enj7bi$qo7$1@news.Stanford.EDU: > > > >> I started to write, but Terry already mentioned it. Cyclist get to > >> know their needs through years of riding. I have found myself > >> drinking less and using less nutrients on longer rides, and also > >> learning how to conserve my energy. > >> > >> I've first read Jobst Brandt article years ago when he rode over > >> 100 miles up Mt. Hamilton to Livermore and back without food and > >> water. At first I was astound that he could do that at his age, > >> and even questioned him about it. I was able to understand after > >> he explained how he conserved his energy and rode in a moderate > >> cooler temperature. > >> > >> I then evaluated my own riding style and learned how to ride > >> longer and conserve. I recently did a 70+ mile Hamilton ride on > >> 3/4 of a small water bottle and no nutrients and actually felt > >> pretty good after the ride. I'll always carry a water bottle and > >> nutrients, and use them if I need it. I used to be a hammer, but > >> learned to tone it down through the years. fwiw, -tom > > > Well, I think you're doing it all wrong. It's not hard to go > > without eating and drinking enough when you're riding. It's hard to > > keep putting the stuff down even though you don't feel hungry and > > thirsty. "Eat before you're hungry and drink before you're thirsty" > > is a truism. If you start feeling hungry and thirsty, you've > > already started down that slippery slope and it's hard to recover. > > A good cyclist would know how to recover. When you start to feel > hungry, simple "eat" When you start to feel thirsty, "drink". > Recovery is part of riding. > > > There are many times I've been on a long ride and felt poorly > > because I didn't eat and drink enough during the ride. I still > > haven't mastered this. > > Many times??? You would think by now you would teach yourself how to > adjust. > > > I'm convinced that learning how to eat and drink properly is the > > key to doing long, hard rides comfortably. > > If you were convinced you probably wouldn't have wrote the line > above. > > > I don't think there is any training benefit to denying your body > > food and water on a ride. Long distance riders do find some benefit in improving their utilization of fats. Eating on the bike usually means eating carbohydrates, which delays processing fats into energy. The insulin surge produced in response to eating carbohydrates results in a drop in blood sugar and hunger, which can result in a recurrent cycle of eating carbs and then getting hungry, eating carbs and then getting hungry. > Not denying, just knowing your body and how to make the necessary > adjustments on long rides. Back when I was racing and training for racing, I found I needed to have something to eat about halfway through a 50 mile training ride. Since I didn't want to stop during the ride, I carried something with me. Now that I no longer race and ride for fun, I can do a 50-70 mile ride with no food and suffer no ill effects. If I get hungry I stop to buy something to eat, but usually it's not an issue. On long rides (200 km+) I do make a point of eating a bit more regularly. Not so much on 200 km rides, but on 300 km -1200 km rides I find that eating regularly means I feel better and enjoy the ride more. Unlike Jobst I like to have water bottles and to drink water on my bike. I rarely carry any liquid other than water on the bike, as most of them just make a sticky mess. There's been a lot of research in the past few years that points out that overhydrating is risky, and that many if not most athletes (especially amateurs) overhydrate because that's the gospel and verse they have been taught. Much of the research that advice was based on was paid for by companies that sell athletic drinks... You lose electrolytes through sweating, and then as you add excess liquids you decrease the concentration of these electrolytes in your blood. You can drop your sodium and potassium levels below what is safe, risking seizures and cardiac arrhythmias. Even if you are drinking "electrolyte replacement" you are still falling behind, because the concentration of electrolytes needed in your drinks would make you puke. You can't easily tell by feel, BTW- most athletes start feeling wonky and respond by drinking more even though it's the overhydration that's making them feel bad. Your CamelBak may not in fact be your best buddy.

Chris Neary writes: >> There's been a lot of research in the past few years that points >> out that overhydrating is risky, > True >> and that many if not most athletes (especially amateurs) >> overhydrate because that's the gospel and verse they have been >> taught. > News to me. Do you have a citation? "Hydrate or Die!" slogan by Cammo-bak, the invisible edge. I've heard the slogan from riders as they interrupt their sucking on the tube. >> You lose electrolytes through sweating, and then as you add excess >> liquids you decrease the concentration of these electrolytes in >> your blood. You can drop your sodium and potassium levels below >> what is safe, risking seizures and cardiac arrhythmias. Even if >> you are drinking "electrolyte replacement" you are still falling >> behind, because the concentration of electrolytes needed in your >> drinks would make you puke. You can't easily tell by feel, BTW- >> most athletes start feeling wonky and respond by drinking more even >> though it's the overhydration that's making them feel bad. > The only times I've felt "wonky" on the bike it was due to dehydration. You must eat plenty then. My bonks get solved by things like bananas or a sugary fruit drink/soda pop. Lack of fuel! > Just a hunch, but I would wager dehydration is far more common than > the overhydration scenarios you've described. That depends on what you see as an excess of either. I think not having done this in early youth didn't generate the natural appetites to make all this scientific analysis unnecessary. I say this because I and my bikie friends rode a lot of big mountain rides and had no trouble with this stuff. No one was there to make us feel guilty of abusing ourselves, something I hear today from "experts" on all sides. Jobst Brandt

In article <knutp29vi2lsa7n070se28a1tdpo92pjf2@4ax.com>, Chris Neary <diabloridr@tcsn.net> wrote: > >There's been a lot of research in the past few years that points out > >that overhydrating is risky, > > True > > >and that many if not most athletes (especially amateurs) overhydrate > >because that's the gospel and verse they have been taught. > > News to me. Do you have a citation? "Most" was poor recall on my part and I apologize. Refreshing my memory I find that it is reported that as many as 30% of endurance athletes were hyponatremic by the end of the event. This was widely covered in the popular and sports press in the last year or so but has been to be a known phenomenon for 18 years or more. Here are a few cites using "overhydration hyponatremia athlete" as the search terms. As you will see, the understanding of the mechanisms involved is incomplete. http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Noakes.htm http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/salt.html http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/aa070703a.htm http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/news-cms/news/?dept=1127&id=41293 http://www.runnersweb.com/running/news/rw_news_20050613_TSO_Hyponatremia. html http://www.gssiweb.com/reflib/refs/604/SSE_88_Content.cfm?pid=96 (note that this is a Web site owned by Gatorade) http://www.acsm.org/AM/PrinterTemplate.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=4150&FU SEFLAG=1&TEMPLATE=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/102/51/18550%20 > >You lose electrolytes through sweating, and then as you add excess > >liquids you decrease the concentration of these electrolytes in your > >blood. You can drop your sodium and potassium levels below what is > >safe, risking seizures and cardiac arrhythmias. Even if you are > >drinking "electrolyte replacement" you are still falling behind, > >because the concentration of electrolytes needed in your drinks > >would make you puke. You can't easily tell by feel, BTW- most > >athletes start feeling wonky and respond by drinking more even > >though it's the overhydration that's making them feel bad. > > The only times I've felt "wonky" on the bike it was due to > dehydration. Verified how? > Just a hunch, but I would wager dehydration is far more common than > the overhydration scenarios you've described. "A study by Speedy et al (1999) reported that 18% of the 330 race finishers at the 1997 New Zealand Ironman triathlon were hyponatremic. The authors concluded that fluid overload was responsible for 73% of those individuals with severe hyponatremia. It was also found that 29% of the athletes in the 1984 Hawaiian Ironman triathlon had developed the condition. In addition, Davis et al (2001) chronicled 26 cases of symptomatic hyponatremia from the 1998 and 1999 San Diego marathon events." By comparison, at the 1998 New Zealand Ironman a concerted effort was made to reduce availability of fluids during the event and yet only 12% of the finishers were suffering from dehydration at the end. Those numbers indicate this is a significant concern. Since the issue has drawn media attention only in the past few years, the prevalence of overhydration causing electrolyte imbalance is not yet well know. There have been incidents of illness as a result of overhydration. The deleterious effects of water intoxication among people with psychogenic polydipsia, diabetes insipidus, etc. are well known (including seizures, cardiac arrhythmia, encephalopathy, coma, death). Certainly dehydration is a potential problem- especially when it is hot out- but it is not lurking around every corner as people have been led to believe. Appropriate hydration is good, excessive hydration is not.

In article <12pvjhkn2v7ite7@corp.supernews.com>, Dan <banquo_lives@yahoo.com> wrote: > Chris Neary wrote: > > > > News to me. Do you have a citation? > > Personal citations: I have seen and/or personally know endurance > athletes who have suffered Hyperhydration/hyponatremia, I have never > encountered a dehydrated endurance athlete. My impression is that > this is a result of two things; > a fear of salt (you can't even buy salt tablets anymore) and the > belief that one must drink every half hour. One friend finished the > Boston Marathon and nearly died. he was not in his best shape so ran > slower than he was used to. Longer time on the course caused him to > drink more. After the race he was bloated and sick and his wife took > him to the hospital. The doctors, being unfamiliar with hyponatremia, > put him on an IV and nearly finished him off. That is something I have seen mentioned in the literature. The person is overhydrated but complains of symptoms not dissimilar to heat stroke (nauseated, not sweating, etc) and the immediate assumption is dehydration. Unfortunately the treatment for dehydration compounds the problem. Doctors aren't unfamiliar with hyponatremia, they just don't expect it in this context- especially ER docs who probably are not reading sports medicine journals. > Unlike Jobst, I usually carry a water bottle, I also keep some rock > salt in my seat bag. I have used the salt a few times and have given > it to others. Hyperhydrated/hyponatremic people bloat with water but > cannot sweat or urinate until they get some salt. I have found that a > little salt can give almost instant relief. My marathon friend would > have been cured in a few minutes with a salt tablet. I've never carried salt on a ride. If I feel a craving I'll stop and buy pretzels. On long rides in warm weather I'll often just go ahead and do that anyway. Rock salt would be convenient and easy to carry. I vaguely remember seeing salt tablets at Target. > I used to go at every ride like a time trial which required careful > hydration and fuel. Nowadays I enjoy looking at the vistas, flora and > fauna which makes fuel and water less critical and the ride more fun. Amen.

Chris Neary writes: >> That depends on what you see as an excess of either. I think not >> having done this in early youth didn't generate the natural >> appetites to make all this scientific analysis unnecessary. I say >> this because I and my bikie friends rode a lot of big mountain >> rides and had no trouble with this stuff. No one was there to make >> us feel guilty of abusing ourselves, something I hear today from >> "experts" on all sides. > I suspect anyone who has become dehydrated to the point of requiring > an IV will find this nonsense quite humorous. that's a classic alarmist response. As I said, I and my bikie friends have ridden many miles and not had the dire consequences of which we hear in this space and in the hydration business. Your IV patient should have stopped when he first felt like taking a drink. He would have done that had he started earlier in life bicycling. So where do you ride that you run into that threshold or see others suffering these consequences? I told you where I ride. http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/SierraSpring.htm http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/ Jobst Brandt

In article <12pvvgibq8rag19@corp.supernews.com>, Dan <banquo_lives@yahoo.com> wrote: > I have a little bag in my saddle kit that holds some Advil and salt. > I doubt I use either as much as once a year. When they turn to > disgusting grit from rattling around on the bike, I have to replace > them. <chuckle> > Pretzels make great recovery food and I think bananas are the food of > the gods. I could go anywhere powered by bananas, pretzels and water. Amen to bananas!

In article <1168119322.787580.232260@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>, doug.landau@gmail.com wrote: > >I used to be a hammer, but learned > > to tone it down through the years. > > >Back when I was racing and training for racing, ... Now that I no > >longer race and ride for fun, ... > > > I used to go at every ride like a time trial which required careful > > hydration and fuel. Nowadays I enjoy looking at the vistas, flora > > and fauna which makes fuel and water less critical and the ride > > more fun. > > JESUS > > Doesn't anyone go out and hammer anymore? > > my gosh Not since I stopped racing at the end of 2000. I enjoy riding much more now than I did for the last year or two that I was racing. Of course, my average speeds are 3-5 mph slower than they used to be!

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > So where do you ride that you run into that threshold or see others > suffering these consequences? Clinb to Kaiser, for one. It's long, it's difficult, it's hot. -- terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com

Terry Morse writes: >> So where do you ride that you run into that threshold or see others >> suffering these consequences? > Clinb to Kaiser, for one. It's long, it's difficult, it's hot. That question was not directed at you, but now that you mention it, if it's hot and no source of water en route, take drinks along. Mt. Evans CO is also a long and high climb, on which I needed no water as it began to snow. I and my friend did not ride back down. We got a ride in a heated car. That ride convinced me of the need for a hood on a riding jacket. As I said, you should asses your needs before you begin to lose physical stability. You may recall how hot it got on the return of the Carson Pass ride I took with your group. I and my friend stopped at a few small stores to eat and drink as the temperature rose above 100F. On the other hand, I wasn't aware that anyone on that ride needed an IV to recover, the condition about which the question was asked and conveniently left off in your terse response. Jobst Brandt

Chris, next week there will be a seminar on long distance riding in Davis. One of the presenters is a medical professsional. Listen to his stories about overhydration. The problem of overhydration is real and becoming more common because of what is being preached. Drink Drink and drink again. Problem is that it is very hard to diagnose. So what happens if you do go to the ER, you get an IV. Unfortunately I don't have the cites but there is some literature out there suggesting that you do drink when you are thristy. Folks I know in the long distance community are starting to readjust their focus. Not happening rapidly but it is happening. "Chris Neary" <diabloridr@tcsn.net> wrote in message news:knutp29vi2lsa7n070se28a1tdpo92pjf2@4ax.com... > >>There's been a lot of research in the past few years that points out >>that overhydrating is risky, > > True > >>and that many if not most athletes >>(especially amateurs) overhydrate because that's the gospel and verse >>they have been taught. > > News to me. Do you have a citation? > >>You lose electrolytes through sweating, and then as you add excess >>liquids you decrease the concentration of these electrolytes in your >>blood. You can drop your sodium and potassium levels below what is >>safe, risking seizures and cardiac arrhythmias. Even if you are >>drinking "electrolyte replacement" you are still falling behind, because >>the concentration of electrolytes needed in your drinks would make you >>puke. You can't easily tell by feel, BTW- most athletes start feeling >>wonky and respond by drinking more even though it's the overhydration >>that's making them feel bad. > > The only times I've felt "wonky" on the bike it was due to dehydration. > > Just a hunch, but I would wager dehydration is far more common than the > overhydration scenarios you've described. > > > > Chris Neary > diabloridr@tcsn.net > > "Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could > you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I > loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

"John Michaels" <hpnotst@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:99boh.57600$qO4.43907@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net: > Chris, next week there will be a seminar on long distance riding in > Davis. One of the presenters is a medical professsional. Listen to > his stories about overhydration. > > The problem of overhydration is real and becoming more common because > of what is being preached. Drink Drink and drink again. Problem is > that it is very hard to diagnose. So what happens if you do go to the > ER, you get an IV. Are you saying that a trip to the ER and being put on an IV is a nothing event? > Unfortunately I don't have the cites but there is some literature out > there suggesting that you do drink when you are thristy. Folks I know > in the long distance community are starting to readjust their focus. > Not happening rapidly but it is happening. > Most of what I've read about hyponatremia has been with walkers, joggers, and runners; not cyclists. Most cyclists I know drink sports drinks, eat salty foods, and some take electrolyte tablets when the weather is hot. I think most of us know about electrolyte depletion. It's hot where I ride a good part of the year and dehydration is a concern. For me, drinking too much on a ride is hard to do with only two water bottles and not many water stops to keep filling up or a SAG wagon handing me bottles out the window. So, who wants to over drink and run out of water or have to stop and pee every 10 miles? For these reasons I believe hyponatremia is being overblown and the real concern is dehydration. See http://walking.about.com/cs/fluids/a/hyponatremia.htm : Hype or Growing Hazard? "Dr Noakes is wrong," said Dr. Jack Schaff, medical director of the Honolulu Marathon Clinic, at the National Event Director's Workshop in October, 2003. He raised fears that races would restrict or remove water stops, leading to more dehydration and heat sickness. At the Honolulu Marathon the temperature and humidity is high and most participants have just flown in and are not acclimated. The Honolulu Marathon attracts many slow runners, walkers, and first-timers. Yet he does not see hyponatremia, but rather sees hundreds of cases of dehydration and heat sickness each year. -- Mike DeMicco <blaster186@comcast.net>

John Michaels wrote: > Unfortunately I don't have the cites but there is some literature out > there suggesting that you do drink when you are thristy. Folks I know in > the long distance community are starting to readjust their focus. Not > happening rapidly but it is happening. http://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/library/hydration/

In article <Xns98B1C192DFC7Dblaster186comcastnet@130.133.1.4>, Mike DeMicco <blaster186REMOVETHIS@comcast.net> wrote: > "John Michaels" <hpnotst@sbcglobal.net> wrote in > news:99boh.57600$qO4.43907@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net: > > > Chris, next week there will be a seminar on long distance riding in > > Davis. One of the presenters is a medical professsional. Listen to > > his stories about overhydration. > > > > The problem of overhydration is real and becoming more common > > because of what is being preached. Drink Drink and drink again. > > Problem is that it is very hard to diagnose. So what happens if > > you do go to the ER, you get an IV. > > Are you saying that a trip to the ER and being put on an IV is a > nothing event? I think he is saying "so what happens is that if you do go to the ER, you get an IV" because you're likely to be misdiagnosed. > > Unfortunately I don't have the cites but there is some literature > > out there suggesting that you do drink when you are thristy. Folks > > I know in the long distance community are starting to readjust > > their focus. Not happening rapidly but it is happening. > > Most of what I've read about hyponatremia has been with walkers, > joggers, and runners; not cyclists. Most cyclists I know drink sports > drinks, eat salty foods, and some take electrolyte tablets when the > weather is hot. I think most of us know about electrolyte depletion. Why would you think that cyclists are any different from other athletes? We're smarter? Better informed? > It's hot where I ride a good part of the year and dehydration is a > concern. For me, drinking too much on a ride is hard to do with only > two water bottles and not many water stops to keep filling up or a > SAG wagon handing me bottles out the window. So, who wants to over > drink and run out of water or have to stop and pee every 10 miles? > For these reasons I believe hyponatremia is being overblown and the > real concern is dehydration. The research does not support your belief. See the half dozen or more cites in my previous post. > See http://walking.about.com/cs/fluids/a/hyponatremia.htm : > > Hype or Growing Hazard? "Dr Noakes is wrong," said Dr. Jack Schaff, > medical director of the Honolulu Marathon Clinic, at the National > Event Director's Workshop in October, 2003. He raised fears that > races would restrict or remove water stops, leading to more > dehydration and heat sickness. At the Honolulu Marathon the > temperature and humidity is high and most participants have just > flown in and are not acclimated. The Honolulu Marathon attracts many > slow runners, walkers, and first-timers. Yet he does not see > hyponatremia, but rather sees hundreds of cases of dehydration and > heat sickness each year. Interestingly enough, measuring all of the participants in the 1997 New Zealand Ironman showed that twice as many participants were suffering from hyponatremia, not dehydration. In 1998 the organizers reduced the number of fluid stations, which reduced the problem of hyponatremia but did not increase dehydration. We've all had it drilled into us that if we feel thirst during exercise, it's too late and we are already dehydrated. If that were true, the species probably would not have survived. As a result we "hydrate" preventively and can actually create problems.

Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in news:timmcn-6A3357.22470607012007@news.iphouse.com: > Why would you think that cyclists are any different from other > athletes? We're smarter? Better informed? Maybe better informed, but there's the convective heat transfer rate. Runners go through the air much slower and thus suffer more from the heat. I'm not saying hyponatremia doesn't exist for cyclists, but I just think the concern is overblown. > We've all had it drilled into us that if we feel thirst during > exercise, it's too late and we are already dehydrated. If that were > true, the species probably would not have survived. As a result we > "hydrate" preventively and can actually create problems. Maybe. I think a danger can be to become dehydrated (e.g., running out of water on a ride) and then when you get to a water source, overdrinking. This happened to me once about 30 years ago when hiking. I ran out of water, and it was very hot. When I got to a stream I drank a LOT of water; till I felt bloated. Damn, did that water taste good. Then we had a long climb out of where we were. I was feeling pretty sick; probably hyponatremia. -- Mike DeMicco <blaster186@comcast.net>

"Dan" <banquo_lives@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:12pvjhkn2v7ite7@corp.supernews.com... > > Personal citations: > I have seen and/or personally know endurance athletes who have suffered > Hyperhydration/hyponatremia, I have never encountered a dehydrated > endurance athlete. Lance Armstrong Individual Time Trial 2004 Tour de France. fwiw, -tom

<doug.landau@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1168119322.787580.232260@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com... > >I used to be a hammer, but learned >> to tone it down through the years. > >>Back when I was racing and training for racing, ... >>Now that I no longer race and ride for fun, ... > >> I used to go at every ride like a time trial which required careful >> hydration and fuel. Nowadays I enjoy looking at the vistas, flora and >> fauna which makes fuel and water less critical and the ride more fun. > > JESUS > > Doesn't anyone go out and hammer anymore? > > my gosh > Not on long endurance rides, what's the use? On short rides, under 50 miles, yes I still enjoy testing my limits on the climbs. fwiw, -tom

In article <Xns98B1E0D597421blaster186comcastnet@130.133.1.4>, Mike DeMicco <blaster186REMOVETHIS@comcast.net> wrote: > Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in > news:timmcn-6A3357.22470607012007@news.iphouse.com: > > > Why would you think that cyclists are any different from other > > athletes? We're smarter? Better informed? > > Maybe better informed, but there's the convective heat transfer rate. > Runners go through the air much slower and thus suffer more from the > heat. > > I'm not saying hyponatremia doesn't exist for cyclists, but I just > think the concern is overblown. Until it's tested we don't know. However, when someone sucks down 100 oz of water out of their Camelbak on a 2 hour ride, I'd be very much surprised of they weren't hyponatremic at the end. My suspicion is that the risk of dehydration is also overblown mainly to serve marketing purposes. Humans- along with the other mammals- have evolved reliable mechanisms for conserving water. If not, then species would not survive droughts. Extreme exercise in hot weather can overcome those mechanisms, of course, but it is very unlikely that you will get dehydrated in an hour except under very unusual circumstances. > > We've all had it drilled into us that if we feel thirst during > > exercise, it's too late and we are already dehydrated. If that > > were true, the species probably would not have survived. As a > > result we "hydrate" preventively and can actually create problems. > > Maybe. I think a danger can be to become dehydrated (e.g., running > out of water on a ride) and then when you get to a water source, > overdrinking. This happened to me once about 30 years ago when > hiking. I ran out of water, and it was very hot. When I got to a > stream I drank a LOT of water; till I felt bloated. Damn, did that > water taste good. Then we had a long climb out of where we were. I > was feeling pretty sick; probably hyponatremia. You can drink water to the point of nausea even if you're not riding your bike.

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message news:timmcn-BA787C.09251408012007@news.iphouse.com... > > You can drink water to the point of nausea even if you're not riding > your bike. I know a lot of cyclist who try to bulk themselves up with nutrients on the day of the ride, especially on long rides. It reminds me of students who thinks they can cram right before the final exam. Keeping yourself in cycling shape is not only about riding, but also includes your fluid intake, nutrients and rest throughout your cycling career. fwiw, -tom

In article <45A28355.2090509@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote: > Tim McNamara wrote: > > > My suspicion is that the risk of dehydration is also overblown > > mainly to serve marketing purposes. > > The studies I've seen tend to show the effect of dehydration on > performance during maximally-sustainable exercise intensity. If you > don't drink, you go slower. Jobst's position has nothing to do with > maximizing speed. Jobst isn't racing any more. Maximizing speed is not really the issue and I think that's been quite clear in the discussion. However as blood testing done at the New Zeland Ironman in 1997 and 1998 showed, hyponatremia was more prevalent among competitors than dehydration and that reducing the available liquids still resulted in low rates of dehydration while reducing hyponatremia. > For example (Fig 1)... drinking is a big deal: > http://www.gssiweb.com/Article_Detail.aspx?articleid=23&level=2&topic=2 Recognizing of course that GSSI = Gatorade Sport Science Institute, and that anything they consent to publish will be tend to be self-serving and therefore of questionable validity. Gatorade makes its profits by convincing people that drinking their product is absolutely critical. > Obviously, folks who lack fitness are subject to more difficulty at a > given distance and intensity. Not directly. People who spend more time at the activity appear to have increased risk of hyponatremia. The guys who win top level marathons drink far less than the people who take six or eight hours- indeed, the top runners drink far less over equivalent time periods. A case might be made for investigating whether hyponatremia results in slower performance and if overhydration might be an athletic disadvantage. Not so long ago the mantra was "drier is faster" and fluid intake was restricted during sporting events- just a few bidons in a 250 km classic. Now the riders drink 10 times as many bidons as they used to (in part to keep their hematocrits below the WADA limit). Bernard Hinault comments on this in his book on bike racing and training as his career straddled this change in approach. There's a middle ground and it's been missed on both ends of the spectrum. Formerly athletes ended up risking dehydration and currently there is a strong tendency to overhydrate in sporting events resulting in hyponatremia (and possibly hypokalemia as well).

In article <entoti$g87$1@news.Stanford.EDU>, "Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message > news:timmcn-BA787C.09251408012007@news.iphouse.com... > > > > You can drink water to the point of nausea even if you're not > > riding your bike. > > I know a lot of cyclist who try to bulk themselves up with nutrients > on the day of the ride, especially on long rides. It reminds me of > students who thinks they can cram right before the final exam. > Keeping yourself in cycling shape is not only about riding, but also > includes your fluid intake, nutrients and rest throughout your > cycling career. You know, that's a very good point. Pro bike racers understand this and are able to organize their lives around training and resting and nutrition. The rest of us don't generally have the ability to do that, but we can still practice good self-care. jamming a bunch of stuff down your throat right before the ride is probably not the good way to do it.

In article <MPG.2009b0b57e71161e989a84@news.conversent.net>, David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote: > In article <timmcn-B01C3F.11373206012007@news.iphouse.com>, > timmcn@bitstream.net says... > > ... > > > I've never carried salt on a ride. If I feel a craving I'll stop > > and buy pretzels. On long rides in warm weather I'll often just go > > ahead and do that anyway. Rock salt would be convenient and easy > > to carry. I vaguely remember seeing salt tablets at Target. > > Many places that carry energy bars and sports drinks also carry > "electrolyte" tablets, which contain potassium and magnesium in > addition to good old sodium chloride. The potassium, in particular, > is supposed to help stop cramping (I don't know from personal > experience, though). I've read that although as I rarely have problems with cramping on rides I've never really tried any of these tablets. I have read that taking calcium (e.g., Tums) will help acutely with cramping, but I've never tried that either.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Terry Morse writes: > > >> So where do you ride that you run into that threshold or see others > >> suffering these consequences? > > > Clinb to Kaiser, for one. It's long, it's difficult, it's hot. > > That question was not directed at you, but now that you mention it, if > it's hot and no source of water en route, take drinks along. That's a very good--albeit incredibly obvious--recommendation. And if it's a truly hot and long ride, you had better have something salty as well. I've been on more than one long Summer ride where companions have gotten into trouble by drinking and not taking in enough salt. Some preztels or a V8 drink is enough to revive them, usually. > Mt. Evans > CO is also a long and high climb, on which I needed no water as it > began to snow. I and my friend did not ride back down. We got a ride > in a heated car. That ride convinced me of the need for a hood on a > riding jacket. As I said, you should asses your needs before you > begin to lose physical stability. I went up Mt. Evans on a much warmer day than yours. When I got to the top, I was out of water. With no permanent water supply up there, I was able to get some water from one of the car drivers. That was very generous, and the water made the rest of the ride a lot more pleasant. > On the other hand, I wasn't aware that anyone on that ride needed an > IV to recover, the condition about which the question was asked and > conveniently left off in your terse response. Terse? Shucks, I was trying for cryptic and dismissive. Oh well. If IV is the topic of conversation, let me contribute: I have had a couple people on my rides end up in the ER with an IV, unable to hold down any fluids. Once was on the Calaveras-Livermore-Mt. Hamilton loop on a very hot day. I like to do that route in the reverse direction, because I enjoy climbing the back side of Hamilton more than the front. But the back side climb is like an oven when the weather is hot. The other incident was at the Everest Challenge in Bishop. It wasn't that hot that day, but that's a tough ride with lots of vertical. After all these years, I finally ended up in the ER after last year's Climb to Kaiser, waiting to get an IV. But with the ER so busy on the hottest day of the year in Clovis, I never got in to see a doctor. After two hours of vomiting in the hallway outside the ER waiting room, I self diagnosed my problem: lack of salt. With few resources at my disposal, I began licking the salt off my arms. Within 15 minutes, I felt better and walked out. -- terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/

> That said, I have no problem with Jobst or Danny or anyone else riding as > far as the want without water or anything else, as long as they recognize > the signs of dehydration. Which are frequently mistaken as altitude issues by those riding in the Sierras. Obviously that's not a problem for Jobst or his buddies, for whom the Sierra is one of their favorite playgrounds. But for a great many people doing the DeathRide, dehydration can be a serious problem, because, without even intending to do so, people often drink on a schedule... and don't realize that what works at lower elevations doesn't work up high due to higher repiratory rates, and the inherent loss of water each time you breathe. Interestingly, it's easy to find references that claim you lose twice the normal amount of water through your lungs above 6000ft than at sea level... but no mention of what that actually means (in other words, how much extra water do you need to replace? Is it a small or large amount?). --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message news:yqQoh.26424$QU1.6620@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net... > Dan wrote: > >> Gatorade makes me fart, I searched the Gatorade-funded-research web site >> you referenced for fart and flatulence but found nothing. I would be >> surprised if you found many articles there that cast any aspect of >> Gatorade in a bad light. > > True -- searching the site for "flatulance" yields no hits. >> >> In 1978 Coyle, who you reference above, published a paper "Gastric >> Emptying Rates for Selected Athletic Drinks" which concludes that >> Gatorade is slower than other sports drinks and even slower than water to >> exit the stomach. Search the Gatorade site for this title and you will >> not find it referenced anywhere. Seems odd. > > This is addressed in the paper I cited. BTW, the 1978 reference is here: > <http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/pdf%20library/(2)%20Coyle,%20Gastric%20emptying%20 rates%20for%20selected%20athletic%20drinks,%20Research%20Quarterly,%20Vol%2049,%20No%202%20 119-124,%20%20May%201978.pdf> > > Subjects were given a fixed schedule of various drinks, and those with a > larger carbohydrate concentration were absorbed slower. > > In the later reference: > http://www.gssiweb.com/Article_Detail.aspx?articleid=23&level=2&topic=2 > > Coyle says: > > --- > > It was previously thought that the addition of carbohydrate to solutions > impaired fluid replacement because carbohydrate is known to slow the rate > at which fluids empty from the stomach (gastric emptying). However, the > most important factor regulating gastric emptying and fluid replacement is > the volume of fluid ingested; the carbohydrate concentration of the > solution is of secondary importance (Coyle & Montain, 1992a; Coyle & > Montain, 1992b, Mitchell et al., 1989; Noakes et al. 1991b; Rehrer et al. > 1990). Practically speaking, solutions containing up to 8% carbohydrate > appear to have little deleterious influence on the rate of gastric > emptying, especially when the drinking schedule adopted maintains a high > gastric volume (Coyle & Montain, 1992b; Houmard et al., 1991; Mitchell et > al., 1988; Noakes et al., 1991b). Thus, it is quite possible to ingest > 30-60 g of carbohydrate per hour and still replace 600-1,250 mL of fluid > per hour. Our experience is that cyclists have no difficulty drinking > 1,200 mL/h of a 6% carbohydrate solution. > > ---- > > So his point is that even though carbohydrate slows the rate of absorption > at a given volume, if the carbohydrate results in an increased volume > consumed, hydration is improved, up to a concentration of approx 6%, > beyond which the effects of high concentration begin to dominate. > > The additional benefit is carbohydrate replenishment, which is > proportional to the rate of emptying times the concentration. > > That said, I have no problem with Jobst or Danny or anyone else riding as > far as the want without water or anything else, as long as they recognize > the signs of dehydration. > >> >> I feel that the real problem with sports hydration is that we humans wish >> we had a silver bullet solution for everything. It would be so nice to >> simply drink more and be better. The actuality is that our bodies need a >> very complex list of nutrients. Too little or too much of any of them is >> problematic. Besides water, carbs, lipids and protein, there must be 50 >> or so required minerals and vitamins. If you are having trouble getting >> up Mt. Ham on a hot day, it may be in part due to too much or too little >> of any of them. > > Well stated.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message news:INSoh.61210. > > Which are frequently mistaken as altitude issues by those riding in the > Sierras. Obviously that's not a problem for Jobst or his buddies, for whom > the Sierra is one of their favorite playgrounds. But for a great many > people doing the DeathRide, dehydration can be a serious problem, because, > without even intending to do so, people often drink on a schedule... and > don't realize that what works at lower elevations doesn't work up high due > to higher repiratory rates, and the inherent loss of water each time you > breathe. > > Interestingly, it's easy to find references that claim you lose twice the > normal amount of water through your lungs above 6000ft than at sea > level... but no mention of what that actually means (in other words, how > much extra water do you need to replace? Is it a small or large amount?). > > --Mike Jacoubowsky > Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReaction.com > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA > The DeathRide also occurs during the 2nd week of July every year, where temperatures during mid-day soar into the 80's to 100's. I would think the heat would be more of a problem than altitude. Although I didn't see many cyclist who had problems with dehydration. The DeathRide is also well supported at the rest-stops with plenty of nutrients and energy drinks, and medical staff if needed. There are also supports on motorcycles and routine sweeps throughout the route, plus the many cyclist on the road willing to give assistance to other fellow cyclist. fwiw, -tom

In article <50i9omF1fsjscU1@mid.individual.net>, Pat Lamb <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote: > Tim McNamara wrote: > > In article <Xns98B1C192DFC7Dblaster186comcastnet@130.133.1.4>, > > Mike DeMicco <blaster186REMOVETHIS@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Most of what I've read about hyponatremia has been with walkers, > >> joggers, and runners; not cyclists. Most cyclists I know drink > >> sports drinks, eat salty foods, and some take electrolyte tablets > >> when the weather is hot. I think most of us know about electrolyte > >> depletion. > > > > Why would you think that cyclists are any different from other > > athletes? We're smarter? Better informed? > > We ride longer and sweat more? Not necessarily. A marathon can easily take longer than a typical road race (but probably not longer than a Sunday Jobst ride). > >> It's hot where I ride a good part of the year and dehydration is a > >> concern. For me, drinking too much on a ride is hard to do with > >> only two water bottles and not many water stops to keep filling up > >> or a SAG wagon handing me bottles out the window. So, who wants to > >> over drink and run out of water or have to stop and pee every 10 > >> miles? For these reasons I believe hyponatremia is being overblown > >> and the real concern is dehydration. > > > > The research does not support your belief. See the half dozen or > > more cites in my previous post. > > I wonder if it's possible to correlate research results and/or > poster's beliefs favoring hyponatremia with living and cycling in > cooler, dryer climates... I don't know if you can correlate posters' beliefs with anything! Some of us don't even agree with ourselves. ;-) > >> See http://walking.about.com/cs/fluids/a/hyponatremia.htm : > >> > >> Hype or Growing Hazard? "Dr Noakes is wrong," said Dr. Jack > >> Schaff, medical director of the Honolulu Marathon Clinic, at the > >> National Event Director's Workshop in October, 2003. He raised > >> fears that races would restrict or remove water stops, leading to > >> more dehydration and heat sickness. At the Honolulu Marathon the > >> temperature and humidity is high and most participants have just > >> flown in and are not acclimated. The Honolulu Marathon attracts > >> many slow runners, walkers, and first-timers. Yet he does not see > >> hyponatremia, but rather sees hundreds of cases of dehydration and > >> heat sickness each year. > > Hot and humid, and dehydrated vs. hyponatremic... > > > Interestingly enough, measuring all of the participants in the 1997 > > New Zealand Ironman showed that twice as many participants were > > suffering from hyponatremia, not dehydration. In 1998 the > > organizers reduced the number of fluid stations, which reduced the > > problem of hyponatremia but did not increase dehydration. > > Cooler, if I understand NZ weather, and more problems with > hyponatremia... > > > We've all had it drilled into us that if we feel thirst during > > exercise, it's too late and we are already dehydrated. If that > > were true, the species probably would not have survived. As a > > result we "hydrate" preventively and can actually create problems. > > Poster living in Minnesota (think cooler and drier than, say, Texas > to North Carolina), believes in hyponatremia. 80-100F in the summer with dew points 60-70F would not be unusual. I've never been to Texas except inside the GHWB Airport and have never been to NC or the eastern seaboard. I pretty much sweat buckets when riding here in mid-summer. My favorite rides are when the temps are 80-85F and up to about 95F or so. I love hot summer weather. > So maybe the results are affected by local climate. Should I apply > for a major NIH grant to study all the existing studies?? Go for it.

Chris Neary <diabloridr@tcsn.net> wrote: > In any of the cited events, did you see any instances of hyponatremia? In all of them. In the two ER visits where the rider got an IV, it was a saline IV. Since I never got to see a doctur in my ER visit, I self diagnosed my own hyponatremia. It was neither heat exhaustion (temperature was normal) nor dehydration (heart rate was normal), and a few licks of a salty arm cured me. If someone presents on a hot day with general symptoms of fatigue, nausea, and disorientation, check temperature and heart rate. If temperature is high, suspect heat exhaustion. If the heart rate is high, suspect dehydration. If temperature is normal AND heart rate is normal, suspect hyponatremia. The body has only about 2 grams of stored sodium, which can be depleted through sweating on a hot day and vigorous exercise in as little as 4 hours. I had my bout with hyponatremia after 8 hours of hard riding in 90-112 degree temperatures. -- terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://www.udctours.com/